southerndownhill.com - Forum

Riding Wonderland today I found one of the jumps newly rebuilt by Dotty, Aaron, Bob, Kyle and myself before May's timing day has been pretty comprehensively destroyed. The jump was fully boxed in with timber and secured with 8" coach bolts, taking it down would have involved an impressive level of effort. Some of the timber has been taken away, some of it is scattered about. All of the coach bolts have been taken. This has happened between Sunday 20th and Tuesday 22nd.

If you know who, or why someone went to such lengths to ruin a very rideable little jump with an established chicken line for those unwilling to hit it, please let me know.

It cannot have been a five minute job, someone must have seen whoever did it.

which track is wonderland alex?

The one that starts with the steep rooty switchbacks.

aka "Dark Side"

Who ever it was well done that jump is crap and that new rocky thing is shocking in a bad way

yeah but rather than pull down someones hard work why not talk to the builders and give them constructive criticism instead

de-constructive criticism?

you know its s**t cos someones removed it. ;D

No it was s**t when it was there and id rather not deal with the chesssy chase builders. It wasn't me by the way i am not really that bothered i just ride the unoffical side now. Oh and it was still there on sunday

ok guys lets not turn this into somthing it shouldn't be.
its nots a dissusion about how good or bad the track is etc

i hope i dont offend anyone saying this but tbh there are parts of rugely that are pretty rough and chav infested, although its a pretty good location for DH area wise, the fact that there are lots of people like chavs local, you have to be prepared for things to get trashed now and again.

Well let's see then, +2 seconds on Moobs time on Sunday for calling me a cheesy chase trails builder and...  ;D

Seriously though, we had heard rumors that that jump was a bit too lippy, but the people that rode it with us liked it, so we left it.  I liked it too...had to keep your speed in check it hit it perfect, but that added to the fun.  But we could have easily removed a slat and lowered it 4" so it could be hit faster.

Moobs, us chessy builders put in a lot of hard graft so you can come ride the trails and complain about them.  We're happy to hear your comments tho, and we would have reduced that jump height if you would have made your thoughts better known.

And BTW, yeah, Cannock is chav-city, but we don't think it was chavs.  The timber and hardware has been removed, not just scattered about.  They didn't leave a mess.  Could have been XCers actually, who use Wonderland on their regular loops over there...  It's quite bizarre really.

And sorry if you guys are good enough to ride the new rock line...  :D

although this new jump may be bad i think we should focus more to the point on the fact something thats taken alot of time has been destroyed.

  what if it was the best run/jump at cannock got destroyed ? would you still take the same attitude?

 not meaning to sound rude or harsh but ive had many jumps/spots ruined by people and it really does p*ss you off, especially if alot of effort has gone into it

Not been up there for a while lads...where on wonderland was this new jump out of interest?

Paul

What the hell is that supposed to mean? So someone's put hours of work in on trails that you can turn up and ride, and you just tell them it's s**t and you don't want to deal with them? Why *was* it s**t for you? How could it be made better in your opinion? Etc etc.
Get your head out of your arse and start being constructive.

Back on topic, gutted for the venue, could it perhaps be ramblers? If it was organised...

I'm not meaning to cause offence, but your attitude makes you seem like a complete and utter c**t.

bang on. I mean if I remember Moobs you are involved in the industry through BETD or similar and your attitude is hardly helping them or yourself. Grow up or f*** off.

The jump is, was, after the big clearing. (http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/8103/cimg0784cc2.jpg)

We don't have a problem with walkers at Cannock as they're official trails. I don't think it's kids as they make a mess. This was a rider really going out of their way to dismantle a jump on someone else's trail because they didn't like it, or because they wanted to steal the wood or hardware. Perhaps whoever did it feels they own the trail and have the right to do it?

Moobs, well. What can I say? You seem happy enough to ride the trails I build and those that the other official builders have created and you know who I am and how to contact me or any of the other trailbuilders and we've heard nothing from you, and then you choose to express your discontent on an internet forum. Come and have a chat at the timing day on Sunday. Get what you need to say off your chest.

iirc that jump was awsome

It had a lovely pop to it, slammed you into the berm and it took some balls to keep it together and hit the next one right straight after the berm.

Aye it was a nice looking jump - was looking forward to hitting it next time I was up.

I'm sorry - but those people who were slagging it off?

STFU!

Seriously. If you have a problem with a feature on a trail, tell the builders face to face, and offer constructive comments on how it could be improved, and then offer to help do the actual building. Rather than sitting on an internet forum hiding behind your keyboard and screen feeling clever!

if thats the jump then thats better than anything ive got around my area so be grateful youve got something so good

 as said before why not go help build then you can have things the way youd prefer

Can go fix it up on Sunday?

Alternatively, me and Yatesy should be up the Saturday afternoon if any official builders are up there?  Can bring some spades if you don't wanna bring loads o kit?

I don't know what the deal is with Moobs.  He's a typical kid when you chat to him but I get on with him fine.  He obviously just has some issues expressing his feelings on the forums.  Best keep it all to yourself Moobs, or ask a grown up to post for you

Smithy

We've not got time on Sunday (we want everyone's help with Balboa, and then we have the timing), but we might do some work on Saturday. Drop me a PM on Friday and I'll have some details for you.

why did the race have to be changed to sunday?  :(

i may be able to come but i think i leaving for fort bill on saturday night

None of the organisers apart from myself could make it on Saturday unfortunately.

haha my riding and my work are completely different. Smithy mark doesn't want to help build. I cant help that you think that i am a c**t and i dont really care i just think that people who ride cannock need to get a grip and start to ask people outside the circle of builders whats good or not because there are hundreds of people that ride the tracks and they are the people who should really get a say. Especial now that place like Mac forest have been destroyed.

Sorry, just which planet are you living on?

If you want a say in how trails are built or run you get off your arse and get involved. It's not your divine right to have things the way you want with no effort, who do you think you are?

I'm not a Cannock builder but I have to say your attitude stinks, this community could really do with less arrogant self-important idiots like yourself...

I take it you've never been on the chasetrails.co.uk forums then, where they announce planning and building days for anyone and everyone to turn up, have their say and get involved?  I never said you're a c**t.  I said maybe you need to have a little think before posting some of your own special style of comments

Smithy

Honestly, it's gutting that any of your trails get trashed. It's bang out of order however you look at it! It doesn't matter if you like the trails or not. END OF!

On the other point that has bee raised. Unfortunately it's pretty well known by a lot of riders I've chatted to that you chase boys often dismiss suggestions for trails pretty easily from new comers. I don't know how you decide on things but I must admit, Alex you've not got the best rep amongst many I've chatted to in the past regarding this matter. I know I briefly chatted to you a few years ago and you certainly proved what I've since heard from many others.

See I'm trying to be as diplomatic as possible here, so please take it on as constructive criticism :)

Ummm, I don't know if you guys have noticed, but at the Chase Trails forum we've gone even one step further to get people involved, by allowing complete outsiders come in and plan a totally new line from top to bottom.  We've been trying to get this "trail planning day" organized for a while, but it's difficult to find a date when all the outsiders can make it.  But bottom line, we are doing everything we can think of to get people involved and get their advice...

Here's a link by the way: http://www.bikeadventuresuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5476

There's also an older thread where people have shared ideas.

As for Alex, well I know he's had a bad reputation in the past, but if you look at his responses to this thread I think he's been quite diplomatic lately...  There are a lot of other people involved besides Alex as well  (including myself).

That's fair enough mate. I've not looked at the site in a long while. Unfortunately it takes a long time to shake a bad experience hence saying what I've said. I still hear people saying things much like my previous post, which kinda proves the point.

I may well pop along and see is I can help in the future now mind :)

Yeah, if you're a regular Chase rider and want to see something new / better, you should definitely try and get to that trail planning day (which will have to be resheduled, probably for Sept now).  Or just show up before a Racer's Guild practice and give some input.  Believe it or not, we do listen!

I can understand though that it might seem like there is an "inner circle".  I felt like there was before I got involved.  But once I got involved, which means just showing up to build on any of the advertised trail days (now usually before RG), all that went away.  It's pretty friendly and it's a very open forum.  There are a lot of guys giving input now.

I think a lot of people would agree that the RG days have created a good vibe around Cannock.  It's really galvanized the local riders.  So I'm surprised by Moobs comments (who is a RG regular).

This idea of me dismissing trail ideas offhand comes from the days when not one single person could be bothered to contribute anything more than pipedreams. It really did used to be that we'd have people come along every day we were building and say "we want more/bigger jumps" or something along those lines. We'd tell them when the next build day was and time and time again we'd hear "Oh no, i don't have time to build, i only get one day a week to ride my bike"

Putting up with that level of 'contribution' made me kinda sceptical about offhand suggestions.

HOWEVER, that was then, this is now.

We now have a large group of dependable builders, all of whom input ideas which get used and so long as it's not "more jumps" we're very receptive to new ideas from others, especially re the new trail (see the planning day thread on the midlands forum).

It's just Alex's diplomatic skill - you get used to it :P

Seriously though on the inner circle? Like Aaron says - once you start talking and helping out they are all friendly.

I haven't done a great deal up there in terms of building as I live over an hour away, and it's just not feasible for me to commit. But when I have helped, there has always been opportunity to express my own opinions on how a trail should be, and I've never felt that any tiny suggestion I made was discarded because I wasn't a regular builder!

Guys,  FYI the "trail planning day" which I spoke about earlier - to establish a new line down the hill based on rider input (rather than the regular ChaseTrails crew) - has been moved to this Sunday (July 27) before the RG timed practice.

This is because people were struggling to meet the other dates, and sooner is better than later!

So come one and all to give us your input and plan a new line down Stile Cop!

Hopefully the riders can get a new line built by October, when something very cool will be happening...stay posted!

(NOTE: This is still an official activity of ChaseTrails but with a view to let other's plan the line.  We'll be working within Forestry Commission rules, but almost everything is fair game.)

i'd say dont build a whole new line but better the other lines for example 'little bringwood' could be made so much better. its hard to explain how over the internet but i'll pop alongg sometime and express my opinions

The newly dug bit of Little Bringewood was a bit of a one hit wonder. It needs totally reworking as the timing day pretty much destroyed it with it being so soft and loamy.

 

I think I destroyed one of the first corners the day before with a monster front wheel washout!  Was amusing to see the corner 3 ft further out the next day!  LOL

Smithy

D_i_R, I agree, Little Bringe does have more potential.  The 2nd half especially...already has some line options, but more would be nice! 

Dave Cotton did a lot of reworking down there, so we all ought to get together and have a look-see at what you're thinking 'bout!   

Right lads lets set one thing straight...

if you don't turn up and build or give constructive criticism to the builders at any site then you have no right to complain about the trails whatsoever.

That's like turning up at a persons garden and complaining that they've built the BBQ on the wrong side of the garden.

I complained about a jump on here in the past and realised i was going about it in the wrong way.....so i turned up to a build day and gave some input.

I had no idea the amount of work these guys put in until then.

for reference Stu, Alex (chase) and Aaron (pslide) are bloody good at what they do.

The north shore type builds they have done have been commended by the forestry commission as the best examples they have seen.

They have worked their arses off with the sites and the trails there are growing exponentially. The area has come on leaps and bounds in the last 24 months or so.

They give up THEIR TIME to build and maintain the trails that WE all ride...and don't pay a penny for....it's not like this is Chicksands where you have to pay the forestry a fiver to ride it because it is a maintained site.

Give them some bloody respect..... I for one really appreciate the work they put in.
Not all of it is always to my taste...but since I haven't got off of my arse and dug for a while i have no right to complain and wouldn't ever dream of it.

These are Forestry commission owned trails...these guys do the building and the maintenance for free and we don't have to pay a penny for that privilege.

.... so they get to choose what gets build at the end of the day.....however THEY CHOOSE to involve outsiders and very often build things to please the masses that they perhaps wouldn't have built.

they are so open to ideas it is unreal.....a few guys wanted a brand new whole trail building.....so they've given up their time organising a full planning day to get everyone who wants a say involved....you can get to say what goes on a trail without even helping to dig!.....

They even run FREE timed run days once a month. They get a medic on site and give up their whole flipping day to get everyone having a good time and plenty of runs with a time attached and post up tabulated results. this is to try and encourage people to get involved with the site

So what planet are people on to be slating these lads on the internet for a jump they've built that might or might not have been to everyones taste.

....if you don't like anything these lads build then get on their forum and arrange to meet up with them and voice some constructive criticism.....simply posting up that you think something is s**t is not going to get anyone anywhere.

And as for whoever trashed the jump...that's just bang out of order, you better pray know one finds out who you are as there is a lot of people that haven't taken kindly to it.....me being one >:(

My 50 pence...keep up the good work lads and ignore the internet warriors.

See you all at the timing day on Sunday.....I'd like to say I'll turn up and dig.... but I have a table booked for Saturday night and I fear I may be quaffing the red as I've had some very good news  ;D

Paul

the top was o.k but not a hel of alot of choice to build new lines,

and the bottom, was good with all the stumps, and that has alot of potential for new lines.

it was the middle (soft) section that i think needs most the work. although i cant think at the moment as i havn't seen the track in a while. if i'm not in scotland then i'll be there on sunday and i'll go check out the track and see if there are any decent lines. (i have a good eye for lines, especially ones that go through rooty sections)  ;)

^^^^^ awsome rant paul  :D

but too true.

and even if you dont like something then do another trail, there is so much variation for a smallish place. there has to be something to your taste and if there isn't and you cba to help then find other trails

Spot on. The whole thing needs bench-cutting. I'll get round to it once I'm back from France. Bench cutting is fun.

bench cutting?  :-\

(sorry for my ignorance)

ah google....


http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/contour.html

Bench cutting is what you see at pretty much every welsh/scottish trail-centre where the trail snakes across the side of the hill. It's a very hardwearing, weather resistant building method. I'm not a huge fan of it on DH trails as it takes away the camber and makes it hard to use natural features, but the technique can be adapted by using an outslope that differs from the IMBA prescribed 3-5% as the trail progresses.

I thought it was a bad hair cut?  :D

I'd love to see that! Although I can't really see the barber getting the inclinometer out.

Cheers Paul for your comments!  Even though you don't make many build days, you did some great fabrication work for ChaseTrails free of charge  :) 

So anyway Paul, what was that good news you got?  I know work was a bit shaky...things looking up?

I'll tell you Sunday mate....can't tell who might read this thread.

Paul

I think the guys at Stile Cop are pretty open to ideas. You've got to realise that the trails have got to be built to acceptable standards to the Forestry Commission, hence no shonky woodwork. Some sort of trust has to be built up before people can be let loose with a spade. That's just common sense though.

For example, I'd felt for a long time that the stuff at Stile Cop needed to be well.....bigger. Stu knew I was a sensible chap so handed me a set of keys to the area and I built the basis of a new line (no prizes for guessing which one by all accounts  ;)) which was finished by the Chase Trails once I moved out to British Columbia. I've seen some video footage of it and for a small line (in length....) it looks pretty cool, and if nothing else, different to everything else there. Dunno if anyone rides it though  ;D

if i'm coming along tomorrow to mainly help build, should i bring my own shovel or are there plenty around?

im not being funny or nothing but how can you say that jump is s**t it looks well built to me , if i ever had a chance to ride up there  i would have loved to hit it it looks a nice jump and its just stupid to tear it down i think !

Well, just got around to reading this thread having forgotten my log in for this site.

First off the Jump is back! And it’s better than before. It’s a little lower so less kicky, it needs less skill to hit cleanly for the berm but hopefully more people will be happy with it.

Thanks for all the support from people on this thread, it’s great to see that what we’re doing is liked but some if not all.

I’ve got no problem at all with people not liking our work, that’s life. What does p**s me off is when they post up from behind their monitors about how bad things are. For the size of the hill I reckon there’s a decent spread of trails up there, check the trail map to see just how many!

http://www.racersguild.co.uk/Cannock/Maps/Stile%20Cop%20Trail%20Map.html

Chase Trails seem to have a bad rep with some riders but just remember that we’ve spent the last 4 years trying to bridge the gap between riders and the FC. It’s taken me a while to get my head around what people might want but now I seem to spend more time riding at Stile Cop than I do XC on the Chase.

It’s unlikely that you’ll ever see exactly what everyone wants but we really are open to suggestions. Check our forum for updates or email me direct with ideas (stuart@chasetrails.co.uk). Give us as much help as you can, “we need bigger jumps” really doesn’t help, likewise show up once in a awhile to help turn these ideas into reality. The website is pretty empty at the moment but we’re working on improving the content over the Summer to keep you better informed.

A couple of years ago the unofficial stuff (Ridge Run, Wonderlands etc) were out of bounds for the FC but we’ve worked with them and now have official building going on over there. This helps to protect the trails during forestry works so when trees get felled there will be something left of the course afterwards. Remember that apart from Balboa and the new line that’s coming soon we aren’t massively changing the existing trails, we’re tweaking them to make them work better and last longer.

We’ve got more plans for the hill how much of this we can turn into reality depends on what funding we can beg and borrow to do what’s needed. We’re up there at least once a month if you want to come up and find us and I’ll always answer emails.

Chase Trails don’t run the hill but we’re the closest thing there is to a caretaker as you’ll get. Use us to work up news ideas rather than thinking we’re just here to ignore you.

Stu
www.chasetrails.co.uk
stuart@chasetrails.co.uk

Why didn't you just build the jump out of dirt, far easier ,IMO it would look better and it would be harder to knock down, problem solved !

I you want tips on what to build just ride the single track on the other side (unofficial side) because that stuff seems way more fun and flowy, es specially when you hit it fast.
Just try and get away from all the man made wooden stuff and gravel just doesn't look good on a DH track keep it natural looking!

This is the problem with just dirt:

(http://realestateguideblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/landslide.jpg)

The trails on the other side are great, but they come and go every year.  On the official side we're trying to build trails to last 5 years. 

Over in Chetwynd coppice, you can build jumps out of dirt, as the soil's reasonably clayey, it sticks together. If you build something, it lasts.

On the official side, the soil type on the hill itself varies between sand and sand and gravel. It's just rubbish for building jumps with. Any lip needs to be reinforced with timber or it'll disappear within days without any more help than a few people riding over it. In the past, trailbuilders at Cannock have used deadfall to pad out jumps and to reinforce lips. Because we're bringing the hill up to Forestry spec, we simply can't use deadfall, so it has to be treated timber. It doesn't look great when it first goes into the ground I admit, but it soon starts to blend in, and most importantly it lasts, meaning the track will be as good tomorrow as it will be in December, without me or anyone else being there every weekend repairing it, especially with the amount of wear a racersguild day puts on the track.