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Author Topic: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??  (Read 1379 times)
kitebits
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2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« on: August 14, 2008, 14:16:18 PM »

When are Fox going to release a 180mm or more single crown?? The 36 has been around a bit now and with the likes of the 66, Totem etc does anyone else feel its lacking  a bit in travel (like an inch!). I would love to see a Fox 38 and leave the 36 to compete with the likes of the 55, Wotan etc.
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 22:44:23 PM »

Why is there any need for a 180mm single. There 36s and 40s fit the bill near to perfect on most set ups. Im sure there would be a rediclous amount of flex with that much travel on a single...with little to no weight saved.
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ImprezaRob
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2008, 08:29:59 AM »

Im sure there would be a rediclous amount of flex with that much travel on a single...with little to no weight saved.

Why? The 180mm Totem and 66 are both very stiff single crown forks.
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mxlemming
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2008, 08:47:55 AM »

25mm, or one inch, added to a fork with an axle to crown length of 550mm (is that typical, I haven't looked it up, but since it's in the denominator it makes little difference...) gives a percentage length change:
25/550*100 = 4.55%.
This means a moment increase of.... 4.55%, plus whatever stupid big stunts that extra inch makes you do...... It isn't likely to cause it to snap, if the structure (tubes, crown etc) remains the same
Deflection is proportional to the third power of length for a given beam stiffness, thus for a 4.55% increase in length, deflection increases by
(1.0455)^3 = 1.143, or a 14.3% increase in flexure, or
1/1.143 = 0.8752, a 12.5% decrease in stiffness.

That's a pretty rough calculation, not even meritting the 3sf I quoted, it's not FEA tailored to a specific fork, and I haven't even looked up the length of a Fox 36, since it doesn't really matter. It also assumes the head angle doesn't change, i.e. you are using it on an appropriate frame. It does suggest it wouldn't be hard to beef it up a bit to make it strong enough though.

Another point, when manufacturers only say the frame is suitable/warrantable for a certain length of fork, this SHOULD be acknowledged, since the effect is multifold - longer=more leverage and slackens the head angle, which increases moment on the head tube quite a lot.
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mtballtheway
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2008, 09:50:35 AM »

25mm, or one inch, added to a fork with an axle to crown length of 550mm (is that typical, I haven't looked it up, but since it's in the denominator it makes little difference...) gives a percentage length change:
25/550*100 = 4.55%.
This means a moment increase of.... 4.55%, plus whatever stupid big stunts that extra inch makes you do...... It isn't likely to cause it to snap, if the structure (tubes, crown etc) remains the same
Deflection is proportional to the third power of length for a given beam stiffness, thus for a 4.55% increase in length, deflection increases by
(1.0455)^3 = 1.143, or a 14.3% increase in flexure, or
1/1.143 = 0.8752, a 12.5% decrease in stiffness.

That's a pretty rough calculation, not even meritting the 3sf I quoted, it's not FEA tailored to a specific fork, and I haven't even looked up the length of a Fox 36, since it doesn't really matter. It also assumes the head angle doesn't change, i.e. you are using it on an appropriate frame. It does suggest it wouldn't be hard to beef it up a bit to make it strong enough though.

Another point, when manufacturers only say the frame is suitable/warrantable for a certain length of fork, this SHOULD be acknowledged, since the effect is multifold - longer=more leverage and slackens the head angle, which increases moment on the head tube quite a lot.

yer... you beat me to it, was going to say exactly that   Undecided
i do agree though that they should have like a Fox 38 in 180mm
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 11:46:17 AM »

something that is becoming evident with the longer travel single crown forks (i.e. 160m+) is that the increased leverage on the crown and steerer is causing premature ageing of the fork crown in that forks are developing creaking / crackling noises (especially under hard breaking) and are having to be replaced under warranty

this is not something limited to one brand, I have dealt with numerous crown/steerer warranty claims on Totems, Travis, 36 and 66 forks

a longer travel single crown fork places less stress on the head tube of a frame than the same length fork in a dual crown package, but at the cost of long term durability to the single crown fork's crown and steerer integrity
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Rhys_Mutha_Hucka
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2008, 13:01:30 PM »

I think they would be so unreliable though if anything like the 40's
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kitebits
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2008, 08:19:34 AM »

25mm, or one inch, added to a fork with an axle to crown length of 550mm (is that typical, I haven't looked it up, but since it's in the denominator it makes little difference...) gives a percentage length change:
25/550*100 = 4.55%.
This means a moment increase of.... 4.55%, plus whatever stupid big stunts that extra inch makes you do...... It isn't likely to cause it to snap, if the structure (tubes, crown etc) remains the same
Deflection is proportional to the third power of length for a given beam stiffness, thus for a 4.55% increase in length, deflection increases by
(1.0455)^3 = 1.143, or a 14.3% increase in flexure, or
1/1.143 = 0.8752, a 12.5% decrease in stiffness.

That's a pretty rough calculation, not even meritting the 3sf I quoted, it's not FEA tailored to a specific fork, and I haven't even looked up the length of a Fox 36, since it doesn't really matter. It also assumes the head angle doesn't change, i.e. you are using it on an appropriate frame. It does suggest it wouldn't be hard to beef it up a bit to make it strong enough though.

Another point, when manufacturers only say the frame is suitable/warrantable for a certain length of fork, this SHOULD be acknowledged, since the effect is multifold - longer=more leverage and slackens the head angle, which increases moment on the head tube quite a lot.

Been revising your A Level maths recently??  Tongue The fact is, travel lengths on single crowns are getting longer and Fox is getting overtaken (IMO) by Marzocchi and Rockshox in terms of travel and performance. I just wondered if anyone had heard if there was anything in the pipeline as Fox are generally very good at setting market trends rather than following them. Thanks for the "information" though!
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2008, 09:51:25 AM »

more travel doesn't always mean better....

think about it... is your 7 inch freeride bike far superior to a 6 inch version? I bet I could ride the 6 inch one faster. And if you want to go faster then why not buy a proper downhill fork. If you want to do 'slopestyle' then show me something you need that extra inch for...

In my opinion, the long travel freeride market is one that has been imported into a country which it's entirely unsuitable for. There is nothing wrong with 6 inch single crowns and 8 inch double crowns but single crowns getting longer just doesn't seem logical to me. Calla the one is bang on
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2008, 15:35:35 PM »

The fact is, travel lengths on single crowns are getting longer and Fox is getting overtaken (IMO) by Marzocchi and Rockshox in terms of travel and performance. I just wondered if anyone had heard if there was anything in the pipeline as Fox are generally very good at setting market trends rather than following them. Thanks for the "information" though!

I don't think RS and especially Marzocchi are even close to the performance of Fox yet with regards to single crowns.  I've owned both Totem Solo Airs, Rockshox' top of the line long travel freeride fork, and Fox 36 Floats...the RS forks weren't even a patch on the Fox forks.  Marzocchi's quality control isn't good enough and neither is RS really.

The only reason for Fox possibly thinking about introducing longer travel forks is to make forks physically longer to suit a different type of fork...this doesn't seem likely.  Fox have gone for XC, All Mountain and DH race...not freeride or slopestyle.  That seems to be a marketing choice from them.  They have forks to suit the types of riding they want to cater for.

Rootes
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2008, 15:50:26 PM »

I went to my local downhill spot today (i say local havnt been in 2 years) and everything is huge now its awsome i used to ride it on a 8 inch dh rig but am on a bottle rocket now and its faster and smother through everything.

6 inch is awsome, and im sure fox will sugest that there forks are usable for all riding styles, if you want more travel on the front and you want fax get the 40's
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kitebits
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2008, 19:31:25 PM »

The fact is, travel lengths on single crowns are getting longer and Fox is getting overtaken (IMO) by Marzocchi and Rockshox in terms of travel and performance. I just wondered if anyone had heard if there was anything in the pipeline as Fox are generally very good at setting market trends rather than following them. Thanks for the "information" though!

I don't think RS and especially Marzocchi are even close to the performance of Fox yet with regards to single crowns.  I've owned both Totem Solo Airs, Rockshox' top of the line long travel freeride fork, and Fox 36 Floats...the RS forks weren't even a patch on the Fox forks.  Marzocchi's quality control isn't good enough and neither is RS really.

The only reason for Fox possibly thinking about introducing longer travel forks is to make forks physically longer to suit a different type of fork...this doesn't seem likely.  Fox have gone for XC, All Mountain and DH race...not freeride or slopestyle.  That seems to be a marketing choice from them.  They have forks to suit the types of riding they want to cater for.

Rootes

Try a Totem Coil - way nicer than the 36 Talas or Van. And yes i ve ridden all three and now run the Totem on my ASX 2. Air forks and long travel - no thanks.
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2008, 21:19:12 PM »

I'll pass on that, if I was gonna run long travel coil's I'd run 40's or Boxxers.  The 36 Floats are the best feeling trail fork I've found so far and I tested everything going.

I ran Coil Totems for a month or so and they just didn't make any sense to me.  The whole reason for me going for single crowns was on trail versatility.  The ability to change the air pressures was a key plus in my eyes.

After running the coils I went for Boxxer teams and the whole world made sense again.

My floats are amazing, I'm running them down at 140mm at the moment, but I can whack them up no bother should I need to.  So far, despite riding UK DH tracks every weekend I haven't felt the need for any more travel on them.

Rootes
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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2008, 21:23:02 PM »

Just to add, this is all my opinion, based on my experiences and my requirements in a bike so it's by no means fact clearly.

I also had issues with my Totems because I was very light when I owned the coils, and couldnt get the spring rate I wanted...yet for some reason the Boxxer Teams felt spot on.  One of those things I suppose.

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Re: 2009/10 Fox 180mm single??
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2008, 15:24:23 PM »

It seems like it’s all a numbers game for some people, but reading feedback in this thread and others you realise that proper setup and good feel/handling quality make way more difference on the trail than 20mm more travel or one less crown…

Comparing the weights for proper dual crown DH forks and silly long travel SC forks there is barely any difference, and ride quality? Well that is debateable, are those people buying 180mm SC forks hitting jumps and pulling fully clicked X-ups and Tail whips? Probably not so why do they need them?
I always find a shorter travel bike feels more nimble and “flickier” and you need pretty rough terrain to make well setup a 6” bike feel really swamped…

The “market Segment” 180mm travel SC forks are aimed squarely at is 13 year old avid MBUK readers looking to equip their knackered, Halfrauds nag of a bike with the longest pogo sticks they can, to achieve that raked out, unridable barge look…
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