southerndownhill.com - Forum

Hey,

Since last posting about a similar subject, it seems the problem has not been sorted.

I have a pair 2008 avid juicy 5 brakes, which I bought from a local bike shop. I fitted them and they were running brilliantly, for a few months, now, the rear one has almost had me at my wit's end. The front is running perfectly though.

It started going spongy, and the lever would travel back to the bar and the brake would just lightly drag at this point. Also, if the bike had been upside down, even for around 3 seconds, it would not work at all.

I asked the knowledgeable masses of this forum and was recommended a simple re-bleed, which was carried out by a well respected local bike shop. The brake felt much better, however it still had a little too much lever travel for my liking. I fitted new pads at this point. Bedding in etc......

After a few weeks, the problem seemed to return, it went spongy, and now once again the lever sails back to the bar, unless it has been rapidly pumped whilst riding some local trails. I f the bike had been in any position other than perfectly on the ground, the brake will not work for ages of pumping.

So I ask you're advice, could it need a proper rebuild? or just a flush out and re-bleed?

Also, possibly related to this problem, my lever seems to flex like mad, and being made of plastic, it doesn't surprise me. This may be making the brake feel worse, so, apart from dangerboy and straightline, can any other levers be fitted to the brake, shorter ideally, (hope / Hayes / etc?)

Wow, I do apologise if that seemed highly long winded, enough caffeine for me!

Thanks

JJ

JJ its because there avid. every avid i have had has gone wrong. you need a set of hopes nothing ever goes wrong with them.

Thank you for helping me with the question I asked Kurtis.

Does anyone have any soloutions to the issue?

JJ

sounds like they just need a rebleed, do they need new pads, my shimanos have more pull when i need new pads.

And the advice on hopes ignore, i had nothing but problems with squeeling over heating boiling them.

I will definatly be getting it bled, I would just like to know if anyone else had experienced similar issues. I think a good chat explaining whats been going on to the mechanics at the lbs should help....

Just wondering if its anything more serious than a bleed, eg seals or hose.....

Thanks

JJ

basically, rebleed, check every nut and bolt on there make it proper tight, when u bleed look in the res pot on the leaver and make sure theres nothing in there (weird but iv known there to be some metal shavings to be in one - another story)

avids leak naturally every pair dose i dont know why mine do every one i know's do just make sure every things proper tight ect

if it dont work sell um and get new brakes, i have 06 fives and my rear one needs a bleed after 2 years, it went spungy once but sorted its self out

LEVER issue-
go on CRC and get a new pair of juicy leavers there liek 15-20 pound a pair there an alloy compound and should sort out the lever flex....why youd get plastic levers is beond me lol

good luck

Seals may of gone.. If they're gradually getting worse there may be a loose bolt or a dead seal somewhere. My Motos did that and it was due to the Banjo being abit loose and letting in air. Send them back to avid or a reputable bike shop to get it rebuilt.

Can't say i ever had any luck with Juicys though. Don't think avids are that robust tbh..

I have experienced this exact same problem with my set of J7s - first with the front brake, after bleeding many times I managed to get this fixed up a lot better only for the rear to go all spongy as well, repeated bleeding (properly - before any one suggests otherwise) has not yet really improved the situation.  

It seems that it takes a good few attempts to get a real good bleed, after which they feel good again - but only for a limited time, usually no more than a couple of rides.

I too am interested to hear if anyone found a more permanent solution to this problem?

My final solution was to get a set of codes (on a deal I couldn't refuse!) but I would like to sort my J7s so I can sell them on guilt free.

This doesn't seem to be filling me with confidence, considering I bought these brakes shortly after they came out, at full rrp too.

Thanks

JJ

Plastic levers..

Jesus, avid are getting worse and worse.

Your paying what.. £70-80 a brake and you get plastic levers.. Thats a joke! You can pay £40 for Tecktro brakes and you get frikkin metal levers.. Bet if you asked them they'd say it was to aid the modulation or some s**t. urghh...

TBH you mite as well try some avid BB5 or 7's lol
the mechanical ones i know loads of kids who ride um on street rigs and they work amazingly
alltho the hayes mech brake is sposed to be the best on the market im not to sure

ok. i have had loads of experience with these brakes.
they will need either a re bleed or a lever seal kit (should be about £15)

if the bleed did not go to plan the air in the system/resovior will cause the problem
sometimes air can be trapped behind the caliper pistons too. which can be bled out.

if this is not the problem the master cylinder seal may be cut by the transfer port. or you may have one with faulty seals. or the resovoir seal could be leaking which will empty the oil there leaving you with air leaking into the pipes.

another problem could be that the caliper seals could be worn letting air pass into the caliper, which is unlikely but worth looking into if the above doent work.

hope this helps

Yeah I remember reading in the adevert for the new elixirs (published by SRAMakaAvid) that juicy damaged its own seals, hence the black flakes/bits that come out when you bleed them. This means that the seals need replacing, although they didn't go into details of what the symptoms of this were...

I've got Juicy 7s and have bled both of them. Only had to re-bleed one of them again because i forgot to pump the lever during the bleed.

I know that the torx bolts on the main calliper of the brake can come loose and leak on Juicy 7's. You just need to tighten them and rebleed. Dunno about juicy 5's.

And as for this 'hopes never fail' rubbish i was just out in france for two weeks with a couple of other guys running a mixture of hopes, juicy 5's, 7's and codes, and hfx mags/9's. The only people who had problems was the guy with the hopes and the guy with the hfx 9 (and the alps is abit out of the hfx 9's league). The hopes really didn't impress me at all, where as my juicy 7 was quality.

Yeah, i forgot to add that they are quality brakes  ;D

Thanks for all of the replies guys, I will take them for a bleed, and pending the bike shop's diagnosis, maybe replacement seals.

I do however feel a little nervous due to the fact they seem to be so hit and miss, for instance, my front one feels phenomenal, and has been 100% reliable, yet the rear........

If this problem does not get resolved, I may have to bite the rather expensive bullet and buy new brakes, something solid and reliable.

JJ

JJ i agree with Kurt, as you know a lot of us are running the new style m4's and have had no problems with them what so ever, they look, perform and feel great. all my experiences with avid have been bad, and i know Brett has got a set of codes instead of his m4's , but they too feel really spongy and crap TBH. If the reliable local bike shop is the one i am thinking of and his bleeding hasn't solved it then ask him to check it over for you and explain in depth about whats going wrong, he should be able to help you out. failing that if you do need to settle and get a new set of brakes then id advise a set of hopes or something along the lines of shimano as they too are pretty reliable in my experience.

Unfortunately, not everyone has that much disposable money, so I would prefer to get it fixed.

If the rear brake needs lots of work however, I will gladly take into account you're advice. I will get it down to the lbs that carried out the last bleed.

Thanks

JJ

Right, I just dropped it off at the shop, well, it's partner shop. I explained the issue, and we are beginning to think its a problem with the either the diaphragm or master cylinder. Good call Dezmtber!

I will have it back on Tuesday with any luck, I'll let those who were too seeking an answer; (Sarah**)

It's a shame, especially considering how much potential the brakes have, hopefully this could have just been a small defect in a certain batch, as my front one has been perfect.

JJ

Edit: Does anyone know if I can fit a metal lever blade to this brake? bar straightline and dangerboy, looking for something short, has anyone retrofitted a hayes / hope blade?

Are you sure they're plastic? My juicy 5's aren't and i'm pretty sure they're 08.

If you've got plastic lever blades, you've been mugged when you bought the brake...

Avid's come with metal blades as standard, I've NEVER seen one with plastic blades that'd be f'ing ridiculous.

Rootes

I am assuming these are plastic, due to how much they flex, together with the white stress marks on the front of them, It may just be that they are very flexy....

I do however want new levers due to the unnerving stress marks and knuckle digging flex.

JJ

I'd be VERY surprised if they were plastic.  Sounds odd though, I've run juicy's since they were released and never found them flexy.

I'm running straitline blades at the moment because I couldn't get new avid blades after snapping one in a crash, they're short and comfortable.  But no stiffer than the avid blades were.

Rootes

Hmmmm, its strange, I guess they must be metal, but it was the white marks on the lever blade (like just before a black plastic snaps) which led me to belive this.

I like the general stopping power of my juicy's, the only thing I would like more is them with a sharper bite point and a more solid feel, less modulation if anything. I thought about braided hoses, however avid strongly advise against this.

Thanks for the advice.

JJ

http://www.southerndownhill.com/forum/index.php/topic,166693.0.html

Hayes, but another story. It might help.

Rich

Thanks, after hearing some of the problems other members had with avids, I ensured all bolts were tight before anything else. Caliper bolts etc.

Hopefully it was just a problem with the lever.

JJ

Have you hit them in a crash at all?  Marginal bending in an accident would explain the marks.

As for less modulation, make sure they're properly bled, if you still want sharper power then braided hoses might be the way to go, Avid don't recommend them because they're not made by Avid...and apparently make the brakes feel more wooden, ie. less modulated.

Rootes

jj,

ther not plastic the same happened to my mechanical levers on my avid bb5 its just like cable rub on your frame but insted its finger rub on the lever its not stress marks.

Could be stress marks as you need to pull his brakes mofoing hard for them to ever start touching the rotor. although jj im sure there metal yours dont feel or even look as if there plastic.

Well, I'm hoping after this they will feel better. Thanks for all of you're advice guys.

So, get it back, try them out. If I still feel underwhelmed with the feel I will look into getting them goodridged; (which will look amazing with the aero finish sliver lever and caliper).

I guess I'll have to chalk the stress marks up to crash damage (although they are perfectly straight, and I cannot recall an instance they were hit)

Thanks again everyone

JJ

Right, update.

I have had the rear brake bled. The lever feels nice, although maybe a tad spongy once it has locked up the wheel. (Possibly just the hoses expanding) But it is a huge improvement.

However, If i stand the bike up on its rear wheel, or put it upside down (even for a few seconds) the lever pulls back to the bar. Nothing there. It feels like all of the fluid has left the lever, it then takes about 5 Min's of riding to get back up to power. Theres clearly an underlying issue, which a bleed hasn't cured. It feels like the brake doesn't have enough fluid, almost.

Any ideas?

JJ

Mine does exactly the same, Hense why its currently sitting in my tool box and i am using my spair brake instead of it. ive had nothing but problems with my juicy 7 carbon its been bled twice and new pads and it has still never worked  >:( worst £90 i have ever spent.

Hope all the way  :D

Its strange though, as my front one is always perfect, no matter what. It has never even needed bleeding since I got it, which is why I want to fix the rear.

JJ

That is exactly the problem I have (had) with mine, also currently sat in my toolbox :(

Feel fine after a bleed, but turn the bike on any sort of angle other than upright and it vanishes, absolutely nothing!  Takes a long time pumping the lever to get anything back...

That is the exact problem I'm having. There must be a soloution to this, seeing as so many people have had this problem.

JJ

new hose maybe and check for grit or the sumthing like the blleed nipple might be bent ?

Hmm, bleed nipples are all fine, it has been bled by the same lbs twice, a very reputable one at that.

I'm honestly thinking of stripping it right down, taking apart everything, replacing all seals / pushrods / then fitting a new goodridge hose. But that's allot of money with no guarantee to fix it.

JJ

Hasn't been bled properly I'd say

I had that and took a couple attempts to get it right, works fine at any angle now

don't fit goodridge to avid brakes as they have a tendancy of f'ing up soon after

Argh, its seems very possible theres a huge bubble of air in there somewhere, seems to be at the lever, judging by the dead feeling I sometimes get.

It's frustrating though, paying £10 a time to get it bled, but I also don't want to splash on on a full avid bleed kit. I might take it back to the shop, talk it over and see if they have any ideas.


Hmm, do you have any evidence to back this up? The only reason avid say not to use goodridge hoses is because they aren't avid. They say the brake loses modulation, and I wouldn't be complaining, as you can feel the standard hoses swelling under hard braking. Braided hoses should give a more solid feel.

JJ

Take it back and they should do it free, if there's air in there then they didn't do the job right first time


And as for goodridge my fairly new juciy 5s were junk after i fitted braided hose, took it off and they were mint. The seals also died soon after.


I haven't had that on any of my 4 sets if they were set up and bled properly

That might just be down to air in the system. I'll take it back and see what they can do. Thanks mate!

JJ

yeah whos doing your bleeding ? and are they using the kit

ive had a few customers who have had there avids bled at "a.n. other" local shop and had similar problems ... ive done them and they have been fine ... which was nice ... means plenty of repeat custom :d

I'm not going to name the shop openly on the internet, as they have always been very good for me and will most probably end up fixing the problem.

It is starting to sound like it's just not a very good bleed, and yes, they have been using the kit. Will it be worth me trying to bleed it the old fashioned way? Well, the way I was used to, bleed it straight from the reserviour? Pumping the lever and tapping hose for bubbles?

JJ

mine do that end everyone i know who has avids have done it, few pumps and its fine

no

Ok, thanks guys, it'll be going back to the shop to see if another bleed solves it.

JJ

buy a bleed kit and do it yourself!

my rear juicy 7s not locking the weel and the lever bites but there's little resistance. Could pad wear have caused this? or are they in need of a bleed again? Also where would i need to look for someone to service them ie new seals?

If you've just lost power but the lever still feels alright the pads/disc are probably contaminated or worn

blitxed the pads and rotor with disc brake cleaner at work, one pad is more worn than the other if that makes any difference. I might give them a bleed cos i can do it for free at work. If that doesnt work then i'll get some new pads and learn to be careful when im spray gt85  ::)

Right, it appears that mine must just be a problem with the bleed, as it feels very nice when the bike is standing up, but if i put it on the back wheel, on its side or upside down theres nothing at the lever.

Then I have to stand the bike up and pump for a few minutes to get it good again. I'll be taking it to get sorted tomorrow.

I am still feeling slightly tempted to goodridge them, but I keep hearing mixed reviews. Some say it gives them a better lever feel, overs say the opposite?

Thanks all,

JJ

I wouldnt risk it. They feel really good when they're working, i reckon you should probably get fishers to do a service on them.

Agreed.

And you learn how to do it in the future.


IMO this makes a huge difference.

Clean with isopropyl alcohol. Bin the pads get new ones.

Rich

Would boiling the fluid also cause power loss? or glazing? they're the orignal avid pads been in there a year been contaminated a few times  ::) I'm gonna try taking a bit of the surface off with sand paper tomorrow. Then if that doesn't work i'll probs order some new pads. I cant tell if the lever feels spongey cos to get enough power to stop i have to pull it past the "firm" bite point in the lever movement. (if that makes sense)

I'm thinking of buying the bleed kit, but its going to cost around £24 off crc. Whereas the shop seems not to have bled it properly in the first place so I'm going to try and take it back to see if they can sort it.

And yeah, Jackhammer, you should try replacing you're pads, I have had good experiences with superstar pads, great performace, cost and reliability!

JJ

Cool man, thanks for the info on those pads think i'll get some then, been reading some reviews of them on here.

Bleeding juicy's so easy once you've done it a few times. Also if the book doesn't make sense there's a video on Youtube by sram that shows you how which i found easier to follow.

I think im gonna buy a bleed kit too but crc don't have them in till the 12 of sept so I'll probs do it with the one at work first. Does anyone know if i order the bleed kit now will the money go out/be suspended from my account now? Otherwise i might spend it  ::)

Just thought i'd add to anyone buying a bleed kit they're cheaper off ebay by £2  ::)

but whats postage ;)

19.99 for the kit 2.50 for postage so still £2.50 cheaper than crc

You can make them yourself with 2x 50ml syringes, and some tubing which you can buy for fish tank pumps from pet shops. And the dot fluid is cheap.

You really can't, as the the syringes need brass fittings to screw into the bleed ports.

JJ

have you ever bled a juicy?
by that post, clearly you have not lol

Lulz i have bled a juicy many times, i just completely forgot they had a screw in bit  :P

Right, an update. I've now had both of my brakes bled at the lbs. They both are feeling much better now, and the rear is working (must have been air in it) THANK GOD!

But I have decided to look for other brakes, as I dont think I will ever get on with the feel of avids.

I have a ad up in wanted and swaps, looking to trade them. I quite fancy some shimano's, I liked the feel of my old xt's.

JJ